@ocdtrekkie@mastodon.social Trying to fix stuff 🤣

Hmmm

@eldersnake@we.loveprivacy.club Thanks 🙏 I’ll put you down as “indifferent somewhat” 🤷‍♂️

@darch@neotxt.dk I think I’m missing something here… Why/Who is “Space Karen” Are we just making fun of Elon now? 🤣

@carsten@yarn.zn80.net Thanks 🙏

Either that or I’m just daft 🤦‍♂️

@darch@neotxt.dk You gotta remember, I’ve never used Twitter™ 😅

🎉 NEW: zs v0.1.0

zs is an extremely minimal static site generator written in Go

@darch@neotxt.dk Who is “Space Karen” and what has she got to do with Twitter™? 🤔

@darch@neotxt.dk Show me your soundcloud embed rule? Maybe mine is wrong 🤣

@darch@neotxt.dk I think in that case, crossposting should be out-of-scope for yarnd and instead we should focus on improving the UI/UX, the API and tooling. Make it easier for people to do what they want.

@carsten@yarn.zn80.net This is an excellent philosophical point. I like what you’re thinking here, and frankly, I personally prefer things to stay the way they are, small interconnected communities. pull-only model, single-user pods, or multi-user pods (with limited sized). It makes things much more manageable, and as things are designed to be slow, much harder to get drowned in and abused 👌

@carsten@yarn.zn80.net This is a good point 👌

I like the small audience and group of people around this. It is a limited factor and a limited small nerdy group, but isn’t this why you have developed it? And people are using it? Small groups of people?

@darch@neotxt.dk Hmm this one doesn’t seem to work that well. Maybe the embed rule is wrong? 🤔

@darch@neotxt.dk It’s a regression I caused in the Permalink handler with content negotiation between text/html, application/json and application/activity+json (for Activity Pub) which I broke, then fixed, fucked up the fixed, and fixed again.

@carsten@yarn.zn80.net Your thoughts/opinions on Activity Pub integration with Yarn / Tstxt? 🤔

What about you @eldersnake@we.loveprivacy.club ?

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY:

So far for Yarn / Twtxt <-> Activity Pub support (if I”m not mistaken) we have:

• ✅ @marado@twtxt.net @stigatle@yarn.stigatle.no @ocdtrekkie@twtxt.net @david@collantes.social
  
• ❌ @mckinley@twtxt.net @darch@neotxt.dk @carsten@yarn.zn80.net
  
• 🤷‍♂️ @abucci@anthony.buc.ci @prologic@twtxt.net @eldersnake@we.loveprivacy.club
  

Sound about right? Please correct me 😅

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY:

So far for Yarn / Twtxt <-> Activity Pub support (if I”m not mistaken) we have:

• ✅ @marado@twtxt.net @stigatle@yarn.stigatle.no @ocdtrekkie@twtxt.net @david@collantes.social
  
• ❌ @mckinley@twtxt.net @darch@neotxt.dk @carsten@yarn.zn80.net
  
• 🤷‍♂️ @abucci@anthony.buc.ci @prologic@twtxt.net
  

Sound about right? Please correct me 😅

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY:

So far for Yarn / Twtxt <-> Activity Pub support (if I”m not mistaken) we have:

• ✅ @marado@twtxt.net @stigatle@yarn.stigatle.no @ocdtrekkie@twtxt.net @david@collantes.social
  
• ❌ @mckinley@twtxt.net @darch@neotxt.dk
  
• 🤷‍♂️ @abucci@anthony.buc.ci @prologic@twtxt.net
  

Sound about right? Please correct me 😅

@darch@neotxt.dk It’s a bug. Update to latest main I think I fixed it 🤣

@thecanine@twtxt.net Hey I fixed a up a bunch of things with zs including the issue you originally filed and I’m hoping you could give things a whirl, poke holes in docs, maybe give it a try on something simple, etc and give me some feedback 🙏

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Fair enough 🤣 Its a bit of a mixed feeling/opinion at the moment. @darch@neotxt.dk definitely doesn’t want it, @stigatle@yarn.stigatle.no would love to see it. @abucci@anthony.buc.ci is still trying to figure out why I keep talking about “pull” vs. “push” models and how awful this coulld be 🤣 @mckinley@twtxt.net thinks it will tear Twtxt / Yarn users apart and increase the divide even further (something I really don’t want anyway). What else did I miss? 😅

@movq@www.uninformativ.de LOL let’s not jump to conclusions 🤣 This is some hot debate going on here 😅

Over the weekend I’ve been making improvements to zs (zs the Zen Static site generator), now installable via go install go.mills.io/zs@latest. I plan to make further improvements today and cleanup the docs a fair bit.

@darch@neotxt.dk I assume you’ve been following along with some of the conversations around Activity Pub… I assume you’d be okay if it was an opt-in feature at both the Pod level and user level? I mean we basically almost do this everywhere else, we may as well here too 🤣

@marado@twtxt.net That’s right. This was the original plan, to basically build an AP bridging service and integrated that with yarnd – but at the time it was a lot more work/harder to do this as I had no idea what I was doing then 🤣 Now I do, but the effort/work is still a lot either way 😅

@marado@twtxt.net See https://fed.brid.gy/ it would work a lot like this. Ther eare two ways we can do this, either a full-bridge service where you registry your Twtxt feed + forward WKD requests for your domain to the service. AP actors would then follow you at the bridge service (transparent to them really) and you would in turn follow them as regular Twtxt feeds. There’d be the same amount of work doing translations on both sides.

The other way to do this (or in addition to) would be to build a Twtxt client (of sort, or maybe a new multi-protocol client) that supports fetching AP actor’s outboxes (the only requirement really being that you need to have a defined Actor with an RSA key pair, which is easy to do on a static site)

👋 To all our Twtxt users and friends (regardless of what client you use, or how you choose to host your feed):

Anyone interested in a Twtxt <-> Activity Pub bridge or even a CLI client/tool for interacting with AP actors as Twtxt feeds? 🤔

@ocdtrekkie@twtxt.net From my pod? Do you follow them? Or did you follow them briefly? 🤔 Just trying to understand… I haven’t yet implemented Undo+Follow (i.e: unfollow) yet… So maybe that might explain it? If you follow/unfollowed? 🤔

The more I continue on this journey, the more I’m finding myself in a position where my original instincts of integrating with a “push”-based social network like Activity Pub was and is a bad idea. You just simply cannot control shit™ 😱

@ocdtrekkie@mastodon.social How in your experience (or can you bring in any experts) is this even fucking possible?! 🤔 😳

@abucci@anthony.buc.ci As an example of the type of problem I’m seeing (even at small scale, and it’s only been a few weeks of things working):

My pod has been posted this Create+Note from an Activity Pub actor that no-one here seems to follow:

$ bat https://twtxt.net/api/v1/debug/db "Token:$YARND_TOKEN" | jq -r '. | map_values(@base64d) | {Key: .key, Value: .value | fromjson} | .Value.Following | select(. != null) | .[]' | sort -u | grep -i VaporMarxPlus | wc -l
0

From https://twtxt.net/twt/ffvzynq

This is terrible 🤦‍♂️ I don’t trust the protocol at this point.

@abucci@anthony.buc.ci That was the original plan actually, but I started out this way “because it was easier” at the time. But now that I know more about how it works in general, I’m thinking it might be better to revere tract and go back to the drawing board.

@shreyan@twtxt.net Fair 👌

@shreyan@twtxt.net No worries 🤗 If you’re any good with landing pages, HTML, CSS and static sites, we could use a hand improving out landing page 🤣 (it’s a bit umm plain and ordinary – but I kind of like things that way)

@mckinley@twtxt.net And here I thought you were for this? Hmmm maybe I was wrong 🤔

@mckinley@twtxt.net This is true actually and you are 100% right

@marado@twtxt.net Yes its’ not just the “User Experience” that has to be considered when adding any new features IMO. As discussed in this thread with @abucci@anthony.buc.ci there are legitimate concerns because of the “push” model that is Activity Pub.

@abucci@anthony.buc.ci What do you mean by “pedantic” exactly?

What would you, as an end user, do if someone stood up a yarn pod full of assholes who all collectively decided to twt at you all day every day?

Right now (without Activity Pub) I wouldn’t know. It wouldn’t hurt me, I don’t follow those “assholes”, I don’t have to. I don’t pull their feed(s).

However (which is the point ) if I have Activity Pub integrated and turned on, I have no choice now. Those same “assholes” can send me shit all day, every day, and there isn’t anything I can do about it. My options then become to administratively block them at the server or OS level. What if I don’t have administrative control?

@stigatle@yarn.stigatle.no Looking good 👌 Before long you’ll matc the experience on teh web 😅

I’ll have a closer look in the morning 🤞

Hmmm

It is optional as well - so if one does not want it - just not turn that feature on.

If we decide that the benefits outweigh the risks and accept that differences (even though we’ll do our best to bridge the gaps) – we’ll have to make “Enabling” / “Disabling” an actual thing. being an experimental feature flag is not enough, feature flags are designed to be short-lived until promoted, or decided against.

The question then becomes more along the lines of:

• Do we want a toggle for Activity Pub at the Pod level? (I assume yes)
  
• Do we want a toggle for Activity Pub discovery at the User level?

In other words, choosing to follow an actor does not follow the same model as Yarn/Twtxt does, where we then decide to “fetch” their feed. In fact it’s the other way around, you end up telling server X that you’re interested in actor Y, and servers X will then “push” stuff back to you. You can see how this can lead to some of the infamous DoS behaviours that can occur in the wild 🤣

@marado@twtxt.net Well, the reality is that you cannot actually control this too well. Because of the push model of Activity Pub you have to a) trust that the servers you are interacting with are both correct and not malicious and b) have to send Undo+Follow activities to actors you no longer want to follow (missing right now)

Problem that I’ve found in practise however is that even for a tiny pod (used for development) I’m seeing interacting with servers I never interacted with (ever).

@stigatle@yarn.stigatle.no I’m not really sure why, I sometimes have problems with PeerCalls (which uses WbeRTC) … Need to dig into why and whether I can solve it so it works better more often…

@stigatle@yarn.stigatle.no I don’t think this is working very well tonight for some reason 😅

@darch@neotxt.dk Here’s the PR that implemented this: https://git.mills.io/yarnsocial/yarn/pulls/1135

You jsut need to configure it as per the description.

@darch@neotxt.dk here’s an example of a Youtube video being embedded:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOm1-PFsLv0

@darch@neotxt.dk I really like the distinction made here between:

Freedom of speech / Freedom to shout

Basically every other social media platform really. All centralised ones like Facebook, Twitter, etc, and push-based ones fall into this category too 👌

Where what we have built with Yarn.social / Twtxt is really:

Freedom to listen

Where we have full control of what we “pull”, or not (Follow/Unfollow). I also like what we were talking about in the call where we describe the interactions as:

I write something down on paper, and post it outside my mailbox/house.
Someone drives by and reads it and is intuiged.
That someone then writes down their own thoughts and replies on their own paper and posted it by their mailbox.
You come along and see it one day, and decide to further erply.

In this way Yarn / Twtxt is much slower, but that’s by design.