@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Yeah, if thereās no stable API, then itās not a lot of fun ⦠Bah. :|
guys microformats are so fun
Alright, now for something fun! Taxes! Yay!
i love pinkpantheress so much sheās so cute and fun and tapped into every aesthetic and dance music sound i love. if you like house and garage and D&B music, check her out!!!! she absolutely knows her shit too btw sheās sampled basement jaxx and adam F
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo_lPnBlfto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFWXqLSr4ZM
@movq@www.uninformativ.de I also donāt think that Iām a particularly good speaker. :-) The workshop model is a good idea, I like that.
Yeah, itās really good fun. I can highly recommend it. This is also a good way to train (new) developers to think like attackers, how to break in, destroy something or raise awareness of some classes of bugs. Then you can avoid them next time. Itās surprising to me what vulnerabilities come up during this event every time. So, absolutely worth it, win, win.
Theyāre all talks, not real hands-on trainings like you did.
I love listening to good, well-structured talks. Problem is, not everybody is a good speaker and many screw it up. š„“ Iām certainly not a great speaker, which is why I gravitate more towards āworkshopsā, in the hopes that people ask questions and discussions arise. Doesnāt always work out. 𤣠At the very least, I almost always have some other person connect to the projector/beamer/screenshare and then they do the stuff ā this avoids me being wwwwaaaaaaaaayyyy too fast.
We are usually drowned in stress and tight deadlines, hence events like today are super rare ⦠We used to do it more often until ~10 years ago.
Once a year the security guys organize a really great hacking event, though.
Oh dear, Iād love to participate in that. 𤯠That sounds like a lot of fun. (Why donāt we do this?!)
@movq@www.uninformativ.de Interesting internal education sessions are way too infrequent here as well. There are a bunch of āknowledge transferā meetings actually, but 90% of the topics already sound totally boring to me. The other 9% talks turned out to be underwhelming, sadly. I only attended a single one where it was delivered what has been promised. Theyāre all talks, not real hands-on trainings like you did.
Once a year the security guys organize a really great hacking event, though. Teams can volunteer to hand in their software dev instances and all workmates are invited to hack them and report security vulnerabilities. Thatās a lot of fun, but also gets frustrating towards the end when you donāt make any progress. :-) Thereās also some actual hands-on training in advance for preparation of the two days. Unfortunately, I missed the last event due to my own project being very stressful at the time.
When I had a Do What You Want Day I also show my direct teammates what I learned in the hopes of this being interesting to them as well. Iām the only one in my team using this opportunity, sadly.
I did a ālectureā/āworkshopā about this at work today. 16-bit DOS, real mode. š¾ Pretty cool and the audience (devs and sysadmins) seemed quite interested. š„³
- People used the Intel docs to figure out the instruction encodings.
- Then they wrote a little DOS program that exits with a return code and they used uhex in DOSBox to do that. Yes, we wrote a COM file manually, no Assembler involved. (Many of them had never used DOS before.)
- DEBUG from FreeDOS was used to single-step through the program, showing what it does.
- This gets tedious rather quickly, so we switched to SVED from SvarDOS for writing the rest of the program in Assembly language. nasm worked great for us.
- At the end, we switched to BIOS calls instead of DOS syscalls to demonstrate that the same binary COM file works on another OS. Also a good opportunity to talk about bootloaders a little bit.
- (I think they even understood the basics of segmentation in the end.)
The 8086 / 16-bit real-mode DOS is a great platform to explain a lot of the fundamentals without having to deal with OS semantics or executable file formats.
Now that was a lot of fun. š„³ Itās very rare that we do something like this, sadly. I love doing this kind of low-level stuff.
@prologic@twtxt.net have fun!
@prologic@twtxt.net Enjoy your road trip! Have fun!! š¤
i ordered some fun colorful new minidiscs so i can finally get back to recording my mixes :D looking forward to it
āThe only way to learn is to try. The best way to learn is to have fun.ā ā@ucodery@fosstodon.org
Of Pointlessware and CEOs
Had a moment, to check up on some of the companies, I stopped following, get to The Browser Company and see their newest product - itās just Chrome, with an AI chat window pop-up and thatās it. Something Canary Chrome, come with already.
I see Theo from T3.gg, making fun of it on YouTube and promoting āhisā product - an AI chat app, where you can choose from multiple models, by all the popular AI companies. Something I already have a worse version of, at work and I donāt even use it.
Thereās also an interview, about the future of virtual keyboards, surely this is at least actually a real thing and not more pointless horse shit. I check the website of the keyboard SDK, and itās around 20 identical apps, that just copy the same keyboard SDK/api and slap chatgpt features on top - in the App Store, these are surrounded by chatgpt clones, that just feed the users prompts, into the real thing and put ads, next to the answers.
Having some fun with SIRDS this morning.
What you should see: https://movq.de/v/dae785e733/disp.png
And the tutorial I used for my C program: https://www.ime.usp.br/~otuyama/stereogram/basic/index.html
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org oh it wouldnāt be very long, maybe thatād make for a fun blog post! i just used the same tool that the nerd font people use to add glyphs, but for a ācustom glyph setā i just added. the whole noto font LMAO
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz That sounds fun! Iām happy to read an article on how you did that. :-)
I had a lot of fun with my modems these past few days:
https://www.uninformativ.de/blog/postings/2025-05-31/0/POSTING-en.html
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz since rebuilding eunoia in astro iāve had soooo much fun with it and i donāt even like JS
@prologic@twtxt.net Thatās an interesting premise in that article:
The fun has been sucked out of the process of creation because nothing I make organically can compete with what AI already producesāor soon will.
This is like saying itās pointless to make music yourself because some professional player/audio engineer does a better job. Really, thereās always someone or something thatās better than you at a particular job.
If we focus too much on ācompetitionā, then yes, you can just stop doing anything. I donāt know how common this mindset is, especially among artists or creative people. š¤ I would have assumed that many writers, for example, simply enjoy the process of writing. Am I being too naive once more? š¤£
We had sun, clouds, wind, rain and a whole lot of fun on our trip to the Wasserberg. Weāve been out seven hours in total, not bad at all for all those kilometers. We added on some detours to check out a pond Iāve been introduced by a mate a few years back.
After some (expensive) tucker at the Wasserberghaus, we tried to actually visit the summit this time. However, thereās nothing to see, just a rough logging trail (46-49). That was a dead end, so we had to turn around. It was some nice exploring, but I reckon this was my first and last time up there. :-)
Unfortunately, we didnāt go to the neighboring Fuchseck this time, only the Wasserberg with some extras.
https://lyse.isobeef.org/wanderung-auf-den-wasserberg-2025-05-18/
static site generators make website-ing so fun like i wanna do so much with my site now
@eldersnake@we.loveprivacy.club awww ty! itās mostly fun stuff and links to my friends :) the buttons have been revived by indie web folks and the people at neocities, itās super fun!
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org fuck yeah!!! glad you had some fun
Thanks to @kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz and her shelf I finally spent several hours in the woodshop. I wanted to build two drawers for the workbench and thought that I will complete this project in no time. Iāve been so wrong again. ;-)
I didnāt draw any plans, just measured a few times and then went to cutting a bunch of particle board leftovers at the table saw. I routed rebates on the sides, fronts and backs to lap the boxes and sink in the bottom. It turned out that having no plans was a stupid idea. I cut exactly on the lines as I calculated and measured, however, the math in my head fell apart when it eventually met reality. The bottoms are too short, so I gotta glue on some strips. Also, with the longer fronts, the sides wonāt work either, I have to fix them as well. :-D
Finally, the lid of my cyclone bucket broke when the negative pressure got too large. Oh well. It was just an old wood glue bucket, Iāve got another empty one, so I can use that lid but strengthen it first with some plywood. Something for future Lyse to deal with.
All in all, it was still good fun. Wood (haha) do it again, but at least with some sketches on paper. ;-)
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz @bender@twtxt.net Hahaha! I canāt recall either, maybe even just a chisel or a knive? Iām not terribly good at it, not even close. Itās just fun. And I do it all too rarely. :-/
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz Thatās cool. Also, looks like a fun woodworking project in case you exceed the hundred slots. :-) The plywood lap joints might be quite repetetive, but gang cutting them with a story stick or some other fixture shouldnāt be too terrible.
@prologic@twtxt.net ah thatās alright! the banner is just for fun :] it might be easier to skip to the comments with this link if you want (itās in the site view mode rather than my pageās theme) https://luckyzukky.dreamwidth.org/98451.html?style=site#comments
@prologic@twtxt.net yeah, the post is here! you can check the comments to see my friends and i talking and stuff itās so fun https://luckyzukky.dreamwidth.org/98451.html
i started a little thing on my dreamwidth and called it a flash prompt box. basically itās a limited time thing where people can prompt me for stuff iām offering, like short fanfiction, photoshop-edited user icons, music recs, and a bit more! iām having sooo much fun with it so far itās been a blast just making stuff for friends :)
also more friends are making their own posts with the same concept which is SO cool to see
Nobody want to be a shitty programmer. The question is: Do you do anything not to not be one?
Reading blogs or social media and watching YouTube videos is fun. After them, your code may be a little better, of course. But you need a lot. You need to study! Read good books and study the code of other programmers, for example. Maybe work with a new language, architectures and paradigms. You need break the routine.
If you know Object-oriented programming, you learn functional programming.
If you know Model-View-Controller, you learn Model-View-ViewModel.
If you donāt know anything about architectures, you learn Clean Architecture, Hexagonal Architecture, etc.
If you know Python, you learn Ruby or Go.
If you know Clojure or Lisp⦠you donāt need to learn anything else. You are already a good programmer. Just kidding. You can learn Elixir or Scala.
Be a good programmer my friend.
slowing working away at my latest code project: learning PHP by recreating the 2000s fandom mainstay known as a fanlisting! itās been super fun i added a dynamic nav bar and other modifications in the latest commit
fanlistings even to this day rely on old PHP scripts dating back to the early 2000s that need whole ass mySQL or postgres DBs and are incredibly insecure. you can look at them here theyāre like super jank lol itās sad that new fanlistings have to use them because thereās no other optionsā¦.
We just split about one and a half cubic meters of fire wood at our scout yard. And even more chainsaw action to cut the logs in smaller chunks. Iām bloody tired now. But it was really great fun swinging the axe. I will sleep like a rock tonight.
iām slowly learning nixOS as part of my new fujocoded contract thing and as scary as it is itās highkey kinda fun. like what do you mean i configure the bootloader with one god damn line in a file thatās EPIC
i donāt think any of you know what a fan listing is but basically it was a fandom thing in the 2000s where people would make websites that other people could sign up for to show theyāre a fan of something. more info here.
anyway i made a fan listing kinda thing in PHP to learn the language. it was fun af
I guess this is trivial to do with some pre-existing engine, but itās more fun to do it yourself: https://movq.de/v/0cfa4e9504/world.tar.gz
Remembered a fun little āhello worldā program I made in 2018:
https://movq.de/v/a1c4a819e6/vid.mp4
(It runs smoothly. My computer just isnāt fast enough for a smooth X11 screengrab at that resolution.)
Can you beat me at the circle game? š https://neal.fun/perfect-circle/
yarnd
UI/UX experience (for those that use it) and as "client" features (not spec changes). The two ideas are quite simple:
@prologic@twtxt.net these sound so fun! iām all for them
@prologic@twtxt.net Hmm, speaking of locally running āAIā stuff: Someone on Mastodon has this in their profile description:
My profile pic is AI modified to prevent deepfakes. I used local Stable Diffusion on my solar powered 7900XTX to average a few selfies.
That sounds like a fun thing to do. Do I have a chance of doing that on my old box from 2013 without a dedicated GPU? š
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz well gamja works fine and all with other peopleās networks but I WANT MY OWN LITTLE NETWORK. FOR FUN
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz Sounds like a lot of fun ! š GOOD LUCK!
AS136907 HWCLOUDS-AS-AP HUAWEI CLOUDS
@prologic@twtxt.net This shi_ is as fun as it is frustrating! š the bot is poking at me from a different ASN now, Alibabaās.
- Short term solution: Iāve geo-locked my Timeline instance since Iām the only one using it (and I only do so for reading twts when Iām away from terminal).
- Long term: I took a look at your Caddy WAF but couldnāt figure things out on my own; until then, Iāll be poking at Caddy-Defender, maybe throw in a Crowdsec for lols⦠#FUN
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz i JUST want my own IRC server for fun. that is all i want
@aelaraji@aelaraji.com tempus fugit when you are having fun! Happy 1st Twtxtversary!
@aelaraji@aelaraji.com oh yeah! You will feel in heaven, me thinks, because that new machine will go around the Pi a few laps. Have fun, mate!
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz these are my little SSH services by the way - a git server and then some fun stuff!
ProDesk 600 G4 Mini with a Core i5-8500T, 32Go of DDR4 RAM and 256Go SSD storage
. A cheaper alternative to an 8GB RPi5 + Argon one v3 m.2 RPi case
kit (NVME not included) š¤·. It should be here by Friday š¤
@aelaraji@aelaraji.com REALLLL you got this!!!!!! the fun will come soon!!!!!
Today, we had a cleanup day with the scouts. I estimate that we ended up with about half a metric ton of rubbish. Despite the heat it was really great fun.
i really wanna learn golang it looks fun and capable and i can read it kind of but every time i try it iām immediately stuck on basic concepts like āwhat the fuck is a pointerā (this has been explained to me and i still donāt get it). i did have types explained to me as like notes on code which makes sense a bit but iām mostly lost on basic code concepts
@movq@www.uninformativ.de hahahah i for one hate sleeping and need to be busy 24/7 or else i go insane so server stuff is awesome for my ADHD ass!!!
IaaS does seem kinda interesting to me, i think i could vibe with that more than full on cloud stuff
i hope i can be one of those people who does the barebones stuff bc i am a rare sicko who finds it fun and cloud stuff scares me LMAOOOO
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org oh yeah i use the CLI sometimes itās fun af
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz Using full-blown Cloud services is good for old people like me who donāt want to do on-call duty when a disk fails. š I like sleep! š
Jokes aside, I like IaaS as a middle ground. There are IaaS hosters who allow you to spin up VMs as you wish and connect them in a network as you wish. You get direct access to all those Linux boxes and to a layer 2 network, so you can do all the fun networking stuff like BGP, VRRP, IPSec/Wireguard, whatever. And you never have to worry about failing disks, server racks getting full, cable management, all that. š
Iām confident that we will always need people who do bare-bones or ālow-levelā stuff instead of just click some Cloud service. I guess that smaller companies donāt use Cloud services very often (because itās way too expensive for them).
i wonder if i could make a little yarn widget for my site to show my last post. thatād be fun. sadly i do not know javascript
i have got to try the jenny yarn client it looks so fun and old schoolā¦ā¦..
@movq@www.uninformativ.de nice!!! i wanna try snac it looks sooo fun
calendar.txt: Keep your calendar in a plain text file
https://terokarvinen.com/2021/calendar-txt/
Itās a lot of fun to have a calendar system.
I got to watch āThe Hitmanās Bodyguardā (2017) for the Nth time earlier today. it is still a fun thing to watch, the only problem is, now I am stuck with Samuel L. Jackson singing his āBevilo Tutto, Bevilo Tutto, Bevilo Bevilo Bevilo Tuttoā¦ā song with the nuns, again and again in my head 𤣠⦠But hey, Iāve learned two Italian words today.
@nff@www.noizhardware.com Nice! Yeah, itās all about having fun. :-) The simplicity got me hooked. Happy hacking!
Had some fun with my old Mandelbrot renderer: https://movq.de/v/83110057f5/
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed it. The beginning part about the history of life on Earth was fun to watch having just read Dawkinās old book The Selfish Geene, and now I want to read more about archaea. The end of the talk about what might be going on on Mars made me a bit hopeful someone will find some good evidence.
i havenāt talked fandom here much letās change that. i might re-run my DC comics ficathon again. i ran it late december through to the end of february last year and it was fun af even if it moved slowly. kinda wanna run it again but i donāt wanna have to promote it.
@prologic@twtxt.net part fun part exhausting lol!
Simplifying my online presence further by removing my Known site. Goodbye social.johanbove.info - it was sometimes a little fun.
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org OMGGGG IāM BRINGING AKB TO YARN LETāS GOOOOO!!!! SO glad you like them they make bangers!!!!! super catchy and fun <333
@movq@www.uninformativ.de we had a TON of fun omg my friends took a bit to learn the game then when they got it we got VICIOUS with each other it was so much fun lol
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz definitely a fun way to get better at bash scripting by hand (AKA learn how it works besides the extreme basics i know) and use gum to make them cute too
been playing with making fun scripts using charm CLIās gum library :P
one that gets lyrics from an open lyrics databaseās API and accepts input for artist & song names: https://asciinema.org/a/697860
and one that uses a user-provided last.fm API key to pull whatās currently playing or what last played on your account :) https://asciinema.org/a/697874
@prologic@twtxt.net fuck yeah!!! i love self hosting things that friends can use itās sooo fun
@kat@yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz fun* lol
getting my friends to join here is so fun. we are invading the humble twtxt/yarn network
"twtxtfeevalidator/0.0.1"
UA about? I thought I could ask before throwing a 1000GB file at it šŖ¤ could it be the same 'xt' thing @lyse was talking about the other day?
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Oh! no need to be sorry and feel free to keep at it if it helps, I donāt mind. Itās just that Iām always on the lookout for corpo-bots and crawlers slipping through the cracks (a fun little game of sorts) š
the only thing I let them see is a robots.txt telling them to :diffoff
Also, Iām curious about the invalid lines in my feed. is it something I should lookout for in future?
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org yeah! as long as itās fun :D experimenting with it like picking up the camera every once in a while to point somewhere else, or in editing inserting more video in between the static angles, that could be fun!
i recorded my first camcorder video!!!! itās just me practicing guitar after sooo long of not playing it. my acoustic, to be specific (well, itās an electric acoustic thing but i can play it without plugging it in lol, i do have a stratocaster though). itās capped at ~30 minutes because i used one mini DVD for it and decided i wasnāt gonna use another one to extend the run time. so yeah. it was super fun! i hope i can share it soon, iām ripping the disc with make MKV right now, then iāll re-encode to a web friendly format, and upload to my site and hope that works well
need to come up with ideas for camcorder videos⦠i have one but itās just ātalk in front of camera about fave songs i listened to in 2024ā and i wanna do more fun things even though rambling in front of cam is already fun af
asciinema is really cool. thought about self hosting my own upload site which they have docs for but i donāt need to host everything even if itād be a fun project. the default/main site is fine enough for me when i wonāt be uploading a whole lot.
this is sooo cute and so fun i got it for timer stuff bc lord knows i need a timer on my computer and now iām staring at animated ASCII cats that kiss https://github.com/poetaman/arttime
been having fun updating my dotfiles repo as if i have anything notable to put in there
@movq@www.uninformativ.de Looks fun. Also kind of looks like APL and Forth had a baby on Jupyter.
Fun fact: php are broken on my pubnix xD https://doesnm.p.psf.lt/info.php
Wanted to share that weāre so proud of our six year old son; after taking skating lessons himself, he taught me and my wife how to stop on skates today. He was so proud about that he could teach us something good. Enjoyed also playing table tennis with him in the park, even-though it got windy, we had fun and didnāt give up trying to have a decent game. And at the guided tour at the old hot-metal plant in Duisburg yesterday, he asked the best questions and could be the guideās assistant - holding the flashlight.
Recent #fiction #scifi #reading:
The Memory Police by YÅko Ogawa. Lovely writing. Very understated; reminded me of Kazuo Ishiguro. Sort of like Nineteen Eighty-Four but not. (I first heard it recommended in comparison to that work.)
Subcutanean by Aaron Reed; https://subcutanean.textories.com/ . Every copy of the book is different, which is a cool idea. I read two of them (one from the library, actually not different from the other printed copies, and one personalized e-book). I donāt read much horror so managed to be a little creeped out by it, which was fun.
The Wind from Nowhere, a 1962 novel by J. G. Ballard. A random pick from the sci-fi section; I think I picked it up because it made me imagine some weird 4-dimensional effect (āfrom nowhereā meaning not in a normal direction) but actually (spoiler) it was just about a lot of wind for no reason. The book was moderately entertaining but there was nothing special about it.
Currently reading Scale by Greg Egan and Inversion by Aric McBay.
@david@collantes.us Well, I wouldnāt recommend using my code for your main jenny use anyway. If you want to try it out, set XDG_CONFIG_HOME and XDG_CACHE_HOME to some sandbox directories and only run my code there. If @movq@www.uninformativ.de is interested in any of this getting upstreamed, Iād be happy to try rebasing the changes, but otherwise itās a proof of concept and fun exercise.
@sorenpeter@darch.dk I like this idea. Just for fun, Iām using a variant in this twt. (Also because Iām curious how it non-hash subjects appear in jenny and yarn.)
URLs can contain commas so I suggest a different character to separate the url from the date. Is this twt Iāve used space (also after āreplytoā, for symmetry).
I think this solves:
- Changing feed identities: although @mckinley@twtxt.net points out URLs can change, I think this syntax should be okay as long as the feed at that URL can be fetched, and as long as the current canonical URL for the feed lists this one as an alternate.
- editing, if you donāt care about message integrity
- finding the root of a thread, if youāre not following the author
An optional hash could be added if message integrity is desired. (E.g. if you donāt trust the feed author not to make a misleading edit.) Other recent suggestions about how to deal with edits and hashes might be applicable then.
People publishing multiple twts per second should include sub-second precision in their timestamps. As you suggested, the timestamp could just be copied verbatim.
Maybe Iām being a bit too purist/minimalistic here. As I said before (in one of the 1372739 posts on this topic ā or maybe I didnāt even send that twt, I donāt remember š ), I never really liked hashes to begin with. They arenāt super hard to implement but they are kind of against the beauty of the original twtxt ā because you need special client support for them. Itās not something that you could write manually in your
twtxt.txt
file. With @sorenpeter@darch.dkās proposal, though, that would be possible.
Tangentially related, I was a bit disappointed to learn that the twt subject extension is now never used except with hashes. Manually-written subjects sounded so beautifully ad-hoc and organic as a way to disambiguate replies. Maybe Iāll try it some time just for fun.
Fun with React Hook Forms and MUI Material lately.
@movq@www.uninformativ.de its always fun to look back on old projects. I talked to an old coworker about a codebase i made back in 2010 that still has lots of the same architecture i built into it back then and is still in heavy use.
I have been doing interview prep for next year. The problems have been great to get practice and make it fun when compared to the dry solve this you get on hacker rank or code scene.
That and so many great write-ups to explain the problems.
Creating stories together with a five year old is fun.
@movq@www.uninformativ.de haha! Iām sure they had fun working around stuff like nineight
Streaming services can suck. Wanted to watch the classic Elf movie for a fun movie night, but somehow we were getting the message āThis movie is not available in your region.ā. Turns out we were looking for the wrong title.
Having fun with React - yet again. A large part of my job entails (re)learning technologies - luckily I have access to some good resources in the form of training- and tutorial sites, all provided by my employer.
@prologic@twtxt.net the new product was GPTs. A way to create tailored bots for specific use cases. https://openai.com/blog/introducing-gpts (fun fact: I did an internal hackathon where we made something like this for $work onboarding. And I won a prize!)
The competed project is poe https://quorablog.quora.com/Introducing-creator-monetization-for-Poe which is basically the same idea. Make a AI bot tailored to a specific domain of knowledge. And monitize it.
The timing fits very well as openAI announced it just a few weeks ago.
ExpressJs is rather fun to work with - at least for a smaller project.
Fiddling with paths in Node Express for fun
I need to learn how to crash dates that are going nowhere with way too much escalation. That should be fun
-1 for the negative on environment all that electricity uses. Still waiting on proof of stake.
It is also too overrun with Tech Bros scamming people to get rich quick.
It was a fun ride back when I first bought in. But I have since cached out for my lambos and such.
fun fact: thereās around 10 mio. times more bacteria on this planet than neurons
probably quite fun at parties
best known to me as the youtube skull & swords guy that breadtube made fun of
funder (thunder but with fun, f*** under, fun; der, person who gives funding)