@off_grid_living@twtxt.net This looks like a glass of water? hmmm 🧐

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com Congrats 🙌

@asquare@twtxt.net I guess someone follows you from my pod (twtxt.net) so welcome 🤗 (if you see this)

@slashdot@feeds.twtxt.net Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black Jack? 🤔 Where are your principles? Or don’t you have any? 😅

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com No that’s not normal.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Yeah this is why thin @anth@a.9srv.net is that and that any v2 spec we get around to actually publishing with far better quality than the bullshit half-baked attempt I tried to 🤣; should just mandate utf-8 period. Just assume it to be true, there is no other content encoding we should ever support 😅

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt Nice 👌 I’ll send you a message later 😅

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com Of course! 🤣 @xuu@txt.sour.is and I run saltyd 😅

Let’s talk about #foo 🤣

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Oh wow that photo looks sick 🤣

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt Haha 🤣 Blame @sorenpeter@darch.dk 🤣

@sorenpeter@darch.dk@darch.dk It doesn’t work🤣 No other clients
Support this 😅

@sorenpeter@darch.dk curious why you at mentioned a timestamp? 🤔

@xuu@txt.sour.is I guess the way SimpleX does its routing is quote clever and ingineious really. – However we never designed Salty.im that way. That wasn’t an attack vector we were really concerned with right? I’ve been using SimpleX with you for the last day or so now and reading up on it, and whilst there are some overlapping and similar ideas I feel that SimpleX has slightly different design goals right?

I mean Salty.im is more designed to be self-hosted, with good crypto but we never tried to set out to build a complex multi-broker, relay network-type protocol right? Do we need to? Probably not I think. Hmmm 🧐

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt I mean generally speaking you would cache things for a period of time right? There are other things you could do as well to build a better more resilient system. These are good conversations to have, however we, and by we I mean mostly @xuu@txt.sour.is and I really, haven’t had a lot of time to spend/invest in Salty.im of late 😭

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt Are you interested in helping continue it’s development with us? Do you have any experience with cryptography and/or programming language like Go?

So… Yes all this is sorta/kinda true, remember I used to work there once (great place to work, awful company). It isn’t by design or on-purpose I don’t think, at least not from the perspective I had back then.

What really needs to happen here in general, and I’ve said it before; is this:

Profiting off of user-generated data and metadata should be made illegal.

Social Media (systems) don’t need to be regulated beyond not allowing minors to access social media. But if you enact the changes to laws (see above) such that profiting off of userdata is made illegal, then you minors can be potentially “safe” from predators. Let’s be honest, predators are the “big tech” companies that make this shit™ highly addictive to the point where it “rots your brain”.

@bender@twtxt.net Cool ! Thanks for sharing your thoughts 🙏 I agree, on the surface this looks bad for privacy and community well being.

@xuu@txt.sour.is How would that work?

@xuu@txt.sour.is Got it 👌

What’s so terrible about Vivaldi? 🤔

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt What do you think of when you say “decentralized”?

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt salty.im needs a lot more work 🤞it is however designed to be 1000% decentralized 👌

@bender@twtxt.net What don’t you like about all this? 🤔 i’m not entirely sure I know all of the folks behind this to be honest.

What’s that address you set up @xuu@txt.sour.is a redirect!

Seems to work okay for me so far 👌

@thecanine@twtxt.net Very nice! 👍

@bender@twtxt.net Yes. I think as a fancy autocomplete “tool” it’s not too shabby. Beyond that I’m not convinced it saves you time at all.

Wow! 😮 He seems to be digging himself into a hole there right? 🤣

Over the past few days I’ve been playing around with the latest Chat-GPT, I think the model is called o1-preview. I’ve used it for various tasks from writing documentation, specs, shell scripts, to code (in Go).

The result? Well I can certainly say the model(s) are much better than they used to be, but maybe that isn’t so much the models per se, but the sheer processing power at OpenAI’s data centers? 🤔

But here’s the kicker though… If anyone ever for a moment ever think that these “AI” things are intelligent, or that the marketing and hype is ever remotely close to trying to convince of us this “AGI” (Artificial General Intelligence) or ASI (Artificial Super Intelligence), you are sorely mistaken.

Chat-GPT and basically and any other technology based on Generative-AI (Gen-AI), these pre-trained transformers that use adversarial neural networks and insanely multi-dimensional vector databases to model all sorts of things from human language, programming languages all the way to visual and audible art are (wait for it):

Incredibly stupid! 🤦‍♂️

They are effectively quite useless for anything but:

• Reproducing patterns (albieit badly)
  
• Search and Retrieval (in a way that “seems” to be natural)
  

And that’s about it.

Used as a tool, they’re kind of okay, but I wouldn’t use Chat-GPT or CoPilot. I’d stick with something more like Codeium if you want a bit of a fancier “auto complete”. Otherwise, just forget about the whole thing honestly. It doesn’t even really save you time.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Ooof 😢

It’s all about the r gage meant ya see 😅

@bender@twtxt.net Nope not at all. base64 just encodes more bits

Build what makes you happy. Let miserable people build the rest

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org I think the proposal should be as simple as this:

• Update the Twt Hash extension.
  
• Increase its truncation from 7 to 12
  

@xuu@txt.sour.is is right about quite a few things, and I’d love it if he wrote up the dynamic hash size proposal, but I’m inclined to just increase the length in the first place mostly because my own client yarnd doesn’t even store the full hashes in the first place 🤦‍♂️ (I thinnk)

@xuu@txt.sour.is Good point.

@xuu@txt.sour.is I guess @movq@www.uninformativ.de ’s point is there isn’t one that is available as standard on OpenBSD? 😅

e.g:

$ printf "%s\t%s\t%s" "https://example.com/twtxt.txt" "2024-09-29T13:30:00Z" "Hello World!" | sha256sum | awk '{ print $1 }' | xxd -r -p | base64 | head -c 12
UWVFdUXtvoLS

@bender@twtxt.net I’m inclined to agree. @xuu@txt.sour.is needs a bit of convincing maybe? 🤔

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Curious, is our goal to have readily available tools on every possible system? 🤔

@bender@twtxt.net To be fair it really isn’t sha256sum vs. b2sum. Neither is more complicated than the other.

@bender@twtxt.net So it should be possible to install man pages in one’s home directory👌

@bender@twtxt.net Yea but what about non-root?

@bender@twtxt.net Hmmm 🤔 Where do you put man pages outside of the contest of a package manager? 🤔

@bender@twtxt.net Not sure. It might be a slight variant. I’ll find out 🙃

@bender@twtxt.net Oh I hope that is true 🤣

@movq@www.uninformativ.de sorry to hear about your personal things going on. 🤗

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I don’t think that matters a great deal. I think you should publish your client anyway because I think the direction that will end up taking will hopefully be one that we collectively agree on. 🤞

@movq@www.uninformativ.de is that the only system is not available on? Are there alternative packages for OpenBSD?

If we stuck with Blake2b for Twt Hash(es); what do we think we need to reasonably go to in bit length/size?

=> https://gist.mills.io/prologic/194993e7db04498fa0e8d00a528f7be6

e.g: (turns out @xuu@txt.sour.is is right about Blak2b being easy/simple too!):

$ printf "%s\t%s\t%s" "https://example.com/twtxt.txt" "2024-09-29T13:30:00Z" "Hello World!" | b2sum -l 32 -t | awk '{ print $1 }'
7b8b79dd

I am told through various sources that Iran decided last night to attack Israel with over 200 missile strikes in response to Israel attacking Lebanon. 🤔

@bender@twtxt.net sorry wat?! 🤣

@bender@twtxt.net at this point, I wouldn’t use anything but Signal or Apple messages 😅.

@xuu@txt.sour.is did we ever spec this up?

@quark@ferengi.one hmm?

I’m not really sure that is any better hmmm, please help 🙏

Let’s try that… Pushed a new commit… Give it ~5m to update…

@bender@twtxt.net I have no idea what I want to be perfectly honest. This is CSS done from scratch 😅

@bender@twtxt.net I’m open to suggestions. What would you prefer the color scheme to be? 🤔

Still playing with the style/template and what to include, just keeping it simple for now.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I’d love it if you write up a page for jenny 🙏 at https://twtxt.dev 🤞

🤣🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣

@bender@twtxt.net Yup!

Btw anyone can put up PR(s) 🙃

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org Agreed

@sorenpeter@darch.dk I think this is a rype will fix!

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Maybe you’re right: Let’s pause this while edit/delete discussions.

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt 👌

@bender@twtxt.net Good point! 👌 I’ll make it so 👌

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt No.

iirc in twtxt v2 it starts prohibited

This is not true. There are no issues supporting fetching feeds via Gemini/Gopher. This is totally fine. What will likely happen is “recommendations” and “drawbacks of using Gemini/Gopher”

Really you stopped 22hrs ago? https://twtxt.net/twt/iaautmq

Hmm da fuq?! @tiktok@feeds.twtxt.net ?

@bender@twtxt.net I see it here hmm 🤔 Dis you accidentally mute your own Twt?

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Hmmm 🤔 Intuitively I say “No they’re not the same”; but let me sleep on it 🙏😴

@bender@twtxt.net Just once I tell ya:

Ah, 16°C… what dreams are made of! 😍

I’d like it to be a nice cool 16°C here 🤣

Personally I don’t see it as a problem. I didn’t even really see edits as a problem either tbh, but this is just an incremental improvement I think.

It’s no worse than what we have now, it’s better. But yes caveats still apply.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Yup.

@slashdot@feeds.twtxt.net No 😅

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt I think it’s a good idea to fork twet and continue to improve it. It’s an “okay” Twtxt cli client, but it needs a bit more work 👌

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt Sorry I meant twet 🤦‍♂️

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org See @movq@www.uninformativ.de ’s undersanding. Now this had some edge cases that we agreed probably aren’t worth solving for.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Yes 👍

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Pretty nice views 👌 I enjoyed reading this. It was though I were there in the morning walking with you guys up to the summit man those mushrooms really are quite some aren’t they? 🙃

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Yes! Basically @david@collantes.us points out that if we mandate that authors should retain the original timestamp in their feed when adjusting content, making fixes, etc, that they retain the original timestamp and leave it unaltered. We already do this anyway, we just need to say so.

Now we have a situation where folks participating in a “conversation” (thread) with appropriate clients can automatically detect edits with almost 100% accuracy by mere fact that the next time they fetch a feed that contains an edit, they now see two versions of the Twt with two different hashes, but identical timestamps.

You can use the fetch time to approximate a “version number” and deal with the display (UX) appropriately.

I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before 🤦‍♂️

There we go!

=> twtxt.dev

🥳

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt I will have something up soon™ 🤞

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt twt probably isn’t the best client I’m afraid. It doesn’t really cache twts by their key (hash) to display threads properly. Jenny however does 👌

Here’s what I’ve got so far…

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt Thanks! I’ve almost come up with my own theme already 🤣 I actually don’t really want to use Hugo at all, I find it too complicated. But it is pretty popular so I thought maybe I’d rip-off a nice theme… Hmmm 🧐

Anyway, What I really normally use for a lot of my static sites is zs

I’m looking to develop a static site for twtxt.dev – A domain I own and have wanted to use for developer and specification docs for Twtxt.

Can anyone recommend a few Hugo themes you like?

All of the dev.twtxt.net content would move over as well.

Cya y’all again next month (2nd Sat in Oct) 🤞

👋 Thanks for joining us on our Sept monthly Yarn.social meetup today y’all 🙇‍♂️ We had @david@collantes.us @sorenpeter@darch.dk @doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt @falsifian@www.falsifian.org and @xuu@txt.sour.is 💪 Nice turn out! (not all at once of course, as we normally run this over 4 hours as we span many time zones!)

Things we talked about:

• Decentralised vs. Distributed
  
• Use of SHA256 for Twt Hash(es)
  
• We solved Edits! 🥳
  
• UUID(s) probably won’t work! (susceptible to sppofing)
  
• Helped @sorenpeter@darch.dk write some PHP to process/parse User-Agent and service his feed via a custom PHP script 😅
  
• @falsifian@www.falsifian.org introduced himself 👌
  
• Talked about Merkle Trees 🌳
  

Did I miss anything? 🤔

And here’s a dashy of the no. of notify requests (from WebSub)

yarnd and WebSub

@bender@twtxt.net The display is very very good 😊

@sorenpeter@darch.dk well edits can be detected with either approach really

Summary of Discussions (as best I can):

• @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org and @sorenpeter@darch.dk express simplicity. Both Lyse and Sorenpeter support location-based addressing.
  
• @falsifian@www.falsifian.org believes we should continue to develop ideas and extensions progressively over time like we’ve always done.
  
• @david@collantes.us @quark@ferengi.one and @bender@twtxt.net would like a better user experience, especially when threads break due to edits, deletions or feed location changes.
  
• @anth@a.9srv.net would like to see utf-8 mandated, and the threading model remain largely the same as it is today, which is primarily based on the convention of a Twt Subject anyway, Twt Hash(es) just make the threading “more precise”. Anth also states that format, client and server specification/recommendations should be kept separate.
  
• @movq@www.uninformativ.de @xuu@txt.sour.is sorry you two haven’t said too much really, so I’m not too sure?
  

Overall, the 22 votes we’ve had on the poll from the community (if you can call it a community?) have clearly shown that:

• We continue to support content-based addressing. (65/35)
  
• We think about formally supporting edits/deletes (60/40)
  
• We do not increase the use of cryptography (thworing things like authenticity and identity out the window) (70/30)
  

And overall the NPS (net promoter score) of “Would I recommend Twtxt to a friend” is a whopping 7/10 (which is crazy! 🤯)

Let’s have our monthly catch up soon™ (1hr) and discuss together. My own take on the direction we should take at this point is as follows:

• We continue to use hashing for the threading model.
  
  • We think about changing this to SHA-256 for simplicity.
    
• We either adopt @anth@a.9srv.net’s UUID approach or @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Dynamic URL approach.
  
• We continue to incrementally/progressively improve things over time as @falsifian@www.falsifian.org suggested.
  
• We think about mandating utf-8 as @anth@a.9srv.net suggests which makes things so much easier for everyone.
  
• We further discuss the merits/ideas of supporting formal Edit/Delete requests or other ways to better support this in some way.

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Got time now before you head off?