@prologic@twtxt.net omg yes! They are both ultra-right-wing assholes! The worst of the worst! Please tell me you don’t listen to these guys’ brain poison?
@abucci@anthony.buc.ci Taking Jordan Peterson asn an example, the only thing he “preaches” (if you want to call it that) is to be honest with yourself and to take responsibility. I’m not sure how and why this is a bad thing to take? 🤔
Ben/Matt are a bit more controversial in their debates about biological facts and have problems with people changing the meaning of words on a “whim”.
And Pierce is just a comical entertainment TV show host (or was) that just like to get into debates and ask sensible questions.
@funbreaker@twtxt.net Where did he say that?
@funbreaker@twtxt.net Yes sure but where did he ever say he has or had a beef with female-led anything in works of fiction?
@funbreaker@twtxt.net Okay, now you’re making me get out of bed at 1am to watch this video, Do you happen to have a timestamp or should I just watch the whole thing? 😅
Okay, so Dr. Peterson has a problem with the movie “Frozen” because of the he believes it to be “reprehensible propaganda” and that when he did see the film he left feeling a strong sense it was produced for ideological reasons, an anti-sleeping beauty.
He then goes on to proclaim that he like the movie Mohan for a different set of reasons.
So what’s the problem here? Where or how or why did you say he has a “beef with female-led anything works of function” (which seems to be a rather broad statement to make.
In fact, why are we even criticising these individuals in the first place?! 🤦♂️ Why don’t we instead stalk about some of the ideas they present and argument they make and talk about those? 🤔 Do you for example disagree or feel differently in one way or another with Dr. Peterson’s strong felt belief that we should be honest with ourselves and hold ourselves accountable? Let’s start there…
Oh! Wow. How did we go from having a debate/discussion to this? 🤔 /ne sigh
This very thread is honestly really proof that we cannot have a civilised debate, discussion or even argument about anything.
Taking Jordan Peterson asn an example, the only thing he “preaches” (if you want to call it that) is to be honest with yourself and to take responsibility.
This is simply untrue. Read the articles I posted, seriously.
In a tweet in one of the articles I posted, Peterson states there is no white supremacy in Canada. This is blatantly false. It is disinformation. Peterson has made statements that rape is OK (he uses “fancy” language like “women should be naturally converted into mothers” but unpack that a bit–what he means is legalized rape followed by forced conception). He is openly anti-LGBTQ and refuses to use peoples’ preferred pronouns. He seems to believe that women who wear makeup at work are asking to be sexually harassed.
He’s using his platform in academia to pretend that straight, white men are somehow the most aggrieved group in the world and everyone else is just whining and can get fucked. The patron saint of Men’s Rights Activists and incels. I find him odious.
@abucci@anthony.buc.ci Thanks I’ll look into this. But you’ve forgive me if I don’t just take your word for it. I’ve only just come across him recently, so I’ll do my research.
@prologic@twtxt.net Because they are rightwing assholes with a huge platform and they are literally HURTING PEOPLE. People get attacked because of things people like Shapiro and Peterson say. This is not just idle chitchat over coffee. They are saying things like it’s OK to rape women (and NO I am not going to dig out the videos where they say that –that’s up to YOU to do, do your own homework before defending these ghouls).
@prologic@twtxt.net It went there because you are supporting bad people who themselves operate at the level of outrage. You cannot have a “debate” about the ideas of someone like Peterson or Shapiro, because those ideas should not be considered debate-worthy. Rape is not OK, period, the end. It is not up for debate or discussion. Yet Peterson acts as if it is. That is abhorrent, and unacceptable in 2023.
@abucci@anthony.buc.ci I’m not defending btw. I’m merely asking questions. I clearly don’t have the experiences and background you seem to have on these individuals.
@prologic@twtxt.net Maybe so, but that’s not because of the people who are objecting to Jordan Peterson, that’s for sure. You really need to read the articles I’ve posted before going there. Really.
I just want one clear example, just one, where either of these two (ghouls as you put it) said anything about or anything in support of rape. Obviously I don’t think Rape is OK, any sensible person would never think that rape is ok. I don’t.
@abucci@anthony.buc.ci Okay, your point on strange (borderline dangerous) ideas on “rape” are spot on. I found this video and comentrary (sadly which was more annoying than helpful). As someone with much experience with sexual abuse, etc, I find his views on this to be umm how shall I put this. Suptid?
For example, he talks about “shophistied women” and how “having prior positive relationships” with other men (fathers, brothers) are more likely to express their strong “no” stange to pushy men. He might be talking purely from a psychological standpoint at this point, but geez, he really should have just said outright from the start “rape is wrong” (or something) and been a bit more careful with his words.
I also don’t need “men” to tell me that rape is wrong ffs 🤦♂️
@prologic@twtxt.net When you unpack what he’s saying in that video (which I’ve watched, and just now re-watched), and strip away all his attempts to wrap this idea in fancy-sound language, he is saying: it would be better if women were viewed as property of men, because then if they were raped, the men who owned them would get mad and do something about it. Because rape would be a property crime then, like trespassing or theft. Left unspoken by him, but very much known to him, is that the man/men who “own” a woman can then have their way with her, just like they can freely walk around their yard or use their own stuff. In his envisioned better world, it’d be impossible for a husband to rape his wife, for instance, because she is his property and he can do almost anything he wants (that’s literally what “property” is in Western countries).
It’s so fucked up it’s hard to put into words how fucked up it is. And this isn’t the only bad idea who bangs on about!
@prologic@twtxt.net yeah man, of course!
I may have misspoken in my haste/anguish. I don’t know of any examples of Ben Shapiro advocating rape. I do know them of Jordan Peterson. He’s known for that, but I’ve seen it myself. So, to be clear, I don’t know if Ben Shapiro is a rape apologist and have no evidence of that. Wouldn’t surprise me frankly because the set of ideas he does talk about tends to include being A-OK with crimes against women, but anyway.
Here I am, looking at my bookshelf, where the ‘12 rules for life’ book sits.
I found the way he had to be put in a coma to get off addiction to his medicine etc fascinating. It felt like the good old ‘do as I say, not as I do’ type of thing. But hey - regardless of who you are or how strong you portray yourself - there can always be hard issues to tackle in life.
@abucci@anthony.buc.ci Yeah, and it looks like (correct me if I’m wrong) his discussions women, sophisticated women and comparisons to property crimes is quite recent. As a clinical psychologist (which is is) I can understand and pick apart what he’s saying from a psychological point of view, the problem is its rather provoking and I don’t quite agree with it. I think it’s easy to take Jordan Peterson out of context here, and maybe we are? – I feel like he should have chosen his words a bit better here. I’m quite confident that if you asked him directly “do you support rape”, or “is rape ok” he would flat out say no. I’m a bit on the fence on this one just because of his background and how complex language can be to convey.
Jordan Peterson isn’t all bad. He can be eccentric and makes some odd comparisons and arguments, but one needs to take the good bits like the personal responsibility etc and filter out the rest. A problem with people today seems to be they can’t totally think for themselves and approach things like it’s all or nothing.
One of my favourite philosophers is Friedrich Nietzsche and I always liked how Peterson spoke of his works generally, but sometimes he had some interpretations I didn’t like so much, but I could tell that was JP’s conservative Christian bias coming through. It is what it is and I just keep it in mind when dwelling on his point of view.
Same with Ben Shapiro, I don’t always agree with either of them on some things. Both can go a little too far the other way when it comes to LGBTQ+ stuff for my liking, but then there’s plenty of stuff I would agree with them on, such as the problem of trans women (biologically born men) in pro women’s sports or surgeries on kids. But I’m much more supportive and inclusive with trans people in a general sense than either of those two. Sadly on most platforms, even what I’m saying here would be something people would absolutely jump on and attack. It’s a bit sad really.
But @prologic@twtxt.net I hope you don’t give up re: yarn. It’s still the best free speech alternative there is and everyone is in total control of what they see, interact with all without the algorithm bullshit. Yes there is the issue of not being able to have reasonable discussions in general these days, though I feel the usual social platforms have fueled this. Hopefully one day that might change.
@eldersnake@we.loveprivacy.club Until you piped in and backed some of my own arguments about taking ideas of others and discussing the good parts for the merits they deserve I was feeling a init disappointed l 😢 So Thank You! 🙇♂️
@chunkimo@twtxt.net Same to you too 🙏
pardon?
I wish we could all talk about things at an intellextual level rather than devolving to the worst in us 🤦♂️
It’s far more productive to talk about the ideas rather than the person that presented those ideas 👌
There’s a football saying:
Talk about the ball not the player
Talk about the ball not the player
Version I always heard was “Play the ball, not the player”, but yes totally agree!
@eldersnake@we.loveprivacy.club Oh maybe I got this slightly, wrong, but yes 100% 💯
@abucci@anthony.buc.ci He’s pure evil.
@prologic@twtxt.net hmm, dunno about the recency of that line of thought. I suspect though that given his (recent or not) history, if someone directly asked him “do you support rape” he would not say “no”, he’d go on one of these rambling answers about property crime like he did in the video. Maybe I’m mind poisoned by being around academics my whole career, but that way of talking is how an academic gives you an answer they know will be unpopular. PhD = Piled Higher And Deeper, after all right? In other words, if he doesn’t say “no” right away, he’s saying “yes”, except with so many words there’s some uncertainty about whether he actually meant yes. And he damn well knows that, and that’s why I give him no slack.
There are people in academia who believe adult men should be able to have sex with children, legally, too. They use the same manner of talking about it that Peterson uses. We need to stop tolerating this, and draw hard red lines. No, that’s bad, no matter how many words you use to say it. No, don’t express doubts about it, because that provides justification and talking points to the people who actually carry out the acts.