@aelaraji@aelaraji.com hey, hey! You are my very first reply! 👋🏻 Cheers!

@david@collantes.us “Hello back” from the other corner of the world! 🫡

Incredibly upset—more than you could imagine—because I already made the first mistake, and corrected it (but twtxt.net got it on it’s cache, ugh!) :‘-( . Can’t wait for editing to become a reality!

Alright. My first mentions—which were picked not so randomly, LOL—are @prologic@twtxt.net, @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org, and @movq@www.uninformativ.de. I am also posting my first image too, which you see below. That’s my neighbourhood, in a “winter” day. Hopefully @prologic@twtxt.net will add my domain to his allowed list, so that the image (and any other further) renders.

Image

Alright, announce_me set to true. Now, who do I pick to be my first mention? Decisions, decisions. Next twtxt will have my first mention(s). :-)

I have configured my twtxt.txt as simple as possible. I have setup a publish_command on jenny. Hopefully all works fine, and I am good to go. Next will be setting the announce_me to true. Here we go!

Everything starts at a “hello world”. At least around these parts; the nerdy parts.

@sorenpeter@darch.dk hmm, how does your client handles “a little editing”? I am sure threads would break just as well. 😉

@prologic@twtxt.net, there is a parser bug on parent. Specifically on this portion:

"*If twtxt/Yarn was to grow bigger, then this would become a concern again. *But even Mastodon allows editing*, so how
+much of a problem can it really be? 😅*"

@movq@www.uninformativ.de going a little sideways on this, “*If twtxt/Yarn was to grow bigger, then this would become a concern again. But even Mastodon allows editing, so how much of a problem can it really be? 😅*”, wouldn’t it preparing for a potential (even if very, very, veeeeery remote) growth be a good thing? Mastodon signs all messages, keeps a history of edits, and it doesn’t break threads. It isn’t a problem there.😉 It is here.

I think keeping hashes is a must. If anything for that “feels good” feeling.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Agreed that hashes have a benefit. I came up with a similar example where when I twted about an 11-character hash collision. Perhaps hashes could be made optional somehow. Like, you could use the “replyto” idea and then additionally put a hash somewhere if you want to lock in which version of the twt you are replying to.

There is nothing wrong with how we currently run a diff to see what has been removed. if i build a merkle tree off all the twt hashes in a feed i can use that to verify a twt should be in a feed or not. and gossip that to my peers.

So.. basically a rehash of the email “unsend” requests? What if i was to make a (delete: 5vbi2ea) .. would it delete someone elses twt?

isn’t the benefit of blake2b that it is a more efficient algo than sha1 and has the same or similar entropy to sha3? i thought we had partially solved this with some type of expanding hash size? additionally we could increase bit density by using base36 or base64/url-safe…

Hey, @movq@www.uninformativ.de, a tiny thing to add to jenny, a -v switch. That way when you twtxt “That’s an older format that was used before jenny version v23.04”, I can go and run jenny -v, and “duh!” myself on the way to a git pull. :-D

@movq@www.uninformativ.de ooooh, nice! commit 62a2b7735749f2ff3c9306dd984ad28f853595c5:

Crawl archived feeds in –fetch-context

Like, very much! :-)

@movq@www.uninformativ.de to paraphrase US Presidents speech on each State of the Union, “the State of the Jenny is strong!” :-D As for the potential upcoming changes, there has to be a knowledgeable head honcho that will agglomerate and coalesce, and guide onto the direction that will be taken. All that with the strong input from the developers that will be implementing the changes, and a lesser (but not less valuable) input from users.

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org I call upon the services of the @yarn_police@twtxt.net to further investigate this oddness!

@quark@ferengi.one Oh, sure, it would be nice if edits didn’t break threads. I was just pondering the circumstances under which I get annoyed about data being irrecoverably deleted or otherwise lost.

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org “I don’t really mind if the twt gets edited before I even fetch it.”, right, that’s never the problem. Editing a twtxt before anyone fetches it isn’t even editing, right? :-P The problem we are trying to fix is the havoc is causes editing twtxts that have already been replied to, often ad nauseam. That’s the real problem.

@quark@ferengi.one I don’t really mind if the twt gets edited before I even fetch it. I think it’s the idea of my computer discarding old versions it’s fetched, especially if it’s shown them to me, that bugs me.

But I do like @movq@www.uninformativ.de’s suggestion on this thread that feeds could contain both the original and the edited twt. I guess it would be up to the author.

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org now, how am I not surprised at that reply?! Hahahahaha!

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org that would be problematic to do on a fully decentralised system. I am not disagreeing, though. That’s the reason I have stopped editing twtxts. I strive to own mistakes, as minor as they might be. Now, if trail editing can be accomplished, I am all for it!

@quark@ferengi.one None. I like being able to see edit history for the same reason.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de You’re right! switching from zsh to bash gave me the same result zq4fgq Thanks!

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org what would the difference be between an edit the changes everything on the original twtxt, and a delete?

@prologic@twtxt.net Why sha1 in particular? There are known attacks on it. sha256 seems pretty widely supported if you’re worried about support.

@prologic@twtxt.net I wouldn’t want my client to honour delete requests. I like my computer’s memory to be better than mine, not worse, so it would bug me if I remember seeing something and my computer can’t find it.

@prologic@twtxt.net

There’s a simple reason all the current hashes end in a or q: the hash is 256 bits, the base32 encoding chops that into groups of 5 bits, and 256 isn’t divisible by 5. The last character of the base32 encoding just has that left-over single bit (256 mod 5 = 1).

So I agree with #3 below, but do you have a source for #1, #2 or #4? I would expect any lack of variability in any part of a hash function’s output would make it more vulnerable to attacks, so designers of hash functions would want to make the whole output vary as much as possible.

Other than the divisible-by-5 thing, my current intuition is it doesn’t matter what part you take.

1. Hash Structure: Hashes are typically designed so that their outputs have specific statistical properties. The first few characters often have more entropy or variability, meaning they are less likely to have patterns. The last characters may not maintain this randomness, especially if the encoding method has a tendency to produce less varied endings.

2. Collision Resistance: When using hashes, the goal is to minimize the risk of collisions (different inputs producing the same output). By using the first few characters, you leverage the full distribution of the hash. The last characters may not distribute in the same way, potentially increasing the likelihood of collisions.

3. Encoding Characteristics: Base32 encoding has a specific structure and padding that might influence the last characters more than the first. If the data being hashed is similar, the last characters may be more similar across different hashes.

4. Use Cases: In many applications (like generating unique identifiers), the beginning of the hash is often the most informative and varied. Relying on the end might reduce the uniqueness of generated identifiers, especially if a prefix has a specific context or meaning.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com odd, I ran it under Ubuntu 24.04, and got the same result as @prologic@twtxt.net (which is on macOS), zq4fgq.

@prologic@twtxt.net I ran the same command and got an even different result xD

~ » echo -n "https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt\n2020-07-18T12:39:52Z\nHello World! 😊" | openssl dgst -blake2s256 -binary | base32 | tr -d '=' | tr 'A-Z' 'a-z' | tail -c 7
p44j3q

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@prologic@twtxt.net I just realised the jenny also does what I want, as of latest commit. Simply use jenny --debug-feed <feed url>, and it will do what I wanted too!

@movq@www.uninformativ.de alright, fair, and interesting. I was expecting them to be all the same (format wise), but it doesn’t matter, for sure, as it works just fine. Thanks!

I have noticed that twtxt timestamps differ. For example:

• @prologic@twtxt.net (and I assume any Yarn user)
  2024-09-18T13:16:17Z
  
• @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org
  2024-09-17T21:15:00+02:00
  
• @aelaraji@aelaraji.com (and @movq@www.uninformativ.de, and me)
  2024-09-18T05:43:13+00:00
  

So, which is right, or best?

I came across this Gallery Theme for Hugo, and @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org immediately came to mind. I think it would be a very fitting theme to use for all your photos, Lyse!

Finally @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org ’s idea of updating metadata changes in a feed “inline” where the change happened (with respect to other Twts in whatever order the file is written in) is used to drive things like “Oh this feed now has a new URI, let’s use that from now on as the feed’s identity for the purposes of computing Twt hashes”. This could extend to # nick = as preferential indicators to clients as well as even other updates such as # description = – Not just # url =

Likewise we could also support delete:229d24612a2, which would indicate to clients that fetch the feed to delete any cached Twt matching the hash 229d24612a2 if the author wishes to “unpublish” that Twt permanently, rather than just deleting the line from the feed (which does nothing for clients really).

An alternate idea for supporting (properly) Twt Edits is to denoate as such and extend the meaning of a Twt Subject (which would need to be called something better?); For example, let’s say I produced the following Twt:

2024-09-18T23:08:00+10:00	Hllo World

And my feed’s URI is https://example.com/twtxt.txt. The hash for this Twt is therefore 229d24612a2:

$ echo -n "https://example.com/twtxt.txt\n2024-09-18T23:08:00+10:00\nHllo World" | sha1sum | head -c 11
229d24612a2

You wish to correct your mistake, so you make an amendment to that Twt like so:

2024-09-18T23:10:43+10:00	(edit:#229d24612a2) Hello World

Which would then have a new Twt hash value of 026d77e03fa:

$ echo -n "https://example.com/twtxt.txt\n2024-09-18T23:10:43+10:00\nHello World" | sha1sum | head -c 11
026d77e03fa

Clients would then take this edit:#229d24612a2 to mean, this Twt is an edit of 229d24612a2 and should be replaced in the client’s cache, or indicated as such to the user that this is the intended content.

@bender@twtxt.net Just replace the echo with something like pbpaste or similar. You’d just need to shell escape things like " and such. That’s all. Alternatives you can shove the 3 lines into a small file and cat file.txt | ...

With a SHA1 encoding the probability of a hash collision becomes, at various k (number of twts):

>>> import math
>>>
>>> def collision_probability(k, bits):
...     n = 2 ** bits  # Total unique hash values based on the number of bits
...     probability = 1 - math.exp(- (k ** 2) / (2 * n))
...     return probability * 100  # Return as percentage
...
>>> # Example usage:
>>> k_values = [100000, 1000000, 10000000]
>>> bits = 44  # Number of bits for the hash
>>>
>>> for k in k_values:
...     print(f"Probability of collision for {k} hashes with {bits} bits: {collision_probability(k, bits):.4f}%")
...
Probability of collision for 100000 hashes with 44 bits: 0.0284%
Probability of collision for 1000000 hashes with 44 bits: 2.8022%
Probability of collision for 10000000 hashes with 44 bits: 94.1701%
>>> bits = 48
>>> for k in k_values:
...     print(f"Probability of collision for {k} hashes with {bits} bits: {collision_probability(k, bits):.4f}%")
...
Probability of collision for 100000 hashes with 48 bits: 0.0018%
Probability of collision for 1000000 hashes with 48 bits: 0.1775%
Probability of collision for 10000000 hashes with 48 bits: 16.2753%
>>> bits = 52
>>> for k in k_values:
...     print(f"Probability of collision for {k} hashes with {bits} bits: {collision_probability(k, bits):.4f}%")
...
Probability of collision for 100000 hashes with 52 bits: 0.0001%
Probability of collision for 1000000 hashes with 52 bits: 0.0111%
Probability of collision for 10000000 hashes with 52 bits: 1.1041%
>>>

If we adopted this scheme, we could have to increase the no. of characters (first N) from 11 to 12 and finally 13 as we approach globally larger enough Twts across the space. I think at least full crawl/scrape it was around ~500k (maybe)? https://search.twtxt.net/ says only ~99k

@quark@ferengi.one My money is on a SHA1SUM hash encoding to keep things much simpler:

$ echo -n "https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt\n2020-07-18T12:39:52Z\nHello World! 😊" | sha1sum | head -c 11
87fd9b0ae4e

I think it was a mistake to take the last n base32 encoded characters of the blake2b 256bit encoded hash value. It should have been the first n. where n is >= 7

Taking the last n characters of a base32 encoded hash instead of the first n can be problematic for several reasons:

1. Hash Structure: Hashes are typically designed so that their outputs have specific statistical properties. The first few characters often have more entropy or variability, meaning they are less likely to have patterns. The last characters may not maintain this randomness, especially if the encoding method has a tendency to produce less varied endings.

2. Collision Resistance: When using hashes, the goal is to minimize the risk of collisions (different inputs producing the same output). By using the first few characters, you leverage the full distribution of the hash. The last characters may not distribute in the same way, potentially increasing the likelihood of collisions.

3. Encoding Characteristics: Base32 encoding has a specific structure and padding that might influence the last characters more than the first. If the data being hashed is similar, the last characters may be more similar across different hashes.

4. Use Cases: In many applications (like generating unique identifiers), the beginning of the hash is often the most informative and varied. Relying on the end might reduce the uniqueness of generated identifiers, especially if a prefix has a specific context or meaning.

In summary, using the first n characters generally preserves the intended randomness and collision resistance of the hash, making it a safer choice in most cases.

@quark@ferengi.one Bloody good question 🙋 God only knows 🤣

@bender@twtxt.net Welcome! 🤗

@prologic@twtxt.net the real conclusion is, is it going to change, to what, and when? :-P

An event, in Portugal, in 2024, with a COVID-19 health and safety policy? It can be done!

I just found out about https://wiki.digitalrights.community/index.php?title=Global_Gathering_COVID-19_Policy , the COVID-19 policy for the #digitalrights “Global Gathering 2024” event that is going to happen in September 27-29 in #Estoril and I must say I’m quite happy about it.

#phpledge

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Haha 😝

What I was referring to in the OP: Sometimes I check the workphone simply out of curiosity. 😂

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Fair 👌

Current Twt Hash spec and probability of hash collision:

The probability of a Twt Hash collision depends on the size of the hash and the number of possible values it can take. For the Twt Hash, which uses a Blake2b 256-bit hash, Base32 encoding, and takes the last 7 characters, the space of possible hash values is significantly reduced.

1. Base32 encoding: Each character in the Base32 encoding represents 5 bits of information (since ( 2^5 = 32 )).
   
2. 7 characters: With 7 characters, the total number of possible hashes is:
   

@quark@ferengi.one Add here:

* a0826a65 - Add debug sub-command to yarnc (7 weeks ago) <James Mills>

I’d recommend a git pull && make build

$ echo -n "https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt\n2020-07-18T12:39:52Z\nHello World! 😊" | sha1sum | head -c 11
87fd9b0ae4e

$ echo -n "https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt\n2020-07-18T12:39:52Z\nHello World! 😊" | sha256sum | base32 | tr -d '=' | tr 'A-Z' 'a-z' | tail -c 12
tdqmjaeawqu

@prologic@twtxt.net yes, that would work, except there is no debug command on my local yarnc. Are you talking about a potential future implementation here?

Just experimenting…

$ echo -n "https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt\n2020-07-18T12:39:52Z\nHello World! 😊" | sha256sum | base64 | tr -d '=' | tail -c 12
NWY4MSAgLQo

It would appear that the blake2b 256bit digest algorithm is no longer supported by the openssl tool, however blake2s256 is; I’m not sure why 🤔

$ echo -n "https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt\n2020-07-18T12:39:52Z\nHello World! 😊" | openssl dgst -blake2s256 -binary | base32 | tr -d '=' | tr 'A-Z' 'a-z' | tail -c 7
zq4fgq

Obviously produce the wrong hash, which should be o6dsrga as indicated by the yarnc hash utility:

$ yarnc hash -u https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt -t 2020-07-18T12:39:52Z "Hello World! 😊"
o6dsrga

But at least the shell pipeline is “correct”.

FWIW the standard UNIX tools for Blake2b are openssl and b2sum – Just trying to figure out how to make a shell pipeline again (if you really want that); as tools keep changing god damnit 🤣

@quark@ferengi.one Do you mean something like this?

$ ./yarnc debug ~/Public/twtxt.txt | tail -n 1
kp4zitq 2024-09-08T02:08:45Z	(#wsdbfna) @<aelaraji https://aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt> My work has this thing called "compressed work", where you can **buy** extra time off (_as much as 4 additional weeks_) per year. It comes out of your pay though, so it's not exactly a 4-day work week but it could be useful, just haven't tired it yet as I'm not entirely sure how it'll affect my net pay

@prologic@twtxt.net I saw those, yes. I tried using yarnc, and it would work for a simple twtxt. Now, for a more convoluted one it truly becomes a nightmare using that tool for the job. I know there are talks about changing this hash, so this might be a moot point right now, but it would be nice to have a tool that:

1. Would calculate the hash of a twtxt in a file.
   
2. Would calculate all hashes on a twtxt.txt (local and remote).
   

Again, something lovely to have after any looming changes occur.

@quark@ferengi.one Watch TV at the moment so unsure about “out of the box tools” but there are 3 implementations on the spec page https://dev.twtxt.net/doc/twthashextension.html

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com Woah! Overkill, but nicely laid out. Hey, the ultimate goal is for it to work, so, mission accomplished! :-)

Could someone knowledgable reply with the steps a grandpa will take to calculate the hash of a twtxt from the CLI, using out-of-the-box tools? I swear I read about it somewhere, but can’t find it.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com Sometimes that’s the most valuable though! Feedback!

@prologic@twtxt.net I’m glad to! it just kinda feel a bit off when it’s all I can do 😅

@quark@ferengi.one Mine is a little overkill 😂 but I need to do something for practice:

#!/bin/bash
set -e
trap 'echo "!! Something went wrong...!!"' ERR

#============= Variables ==========#

# Source files
LOCAL_DIR=$HOME/twtxt

TWTXT=$LOCAL_DIR/twtxt.txt
HTML=$LOCAL_DIR/log.html
TEMPLATE=$LOCAL_DIR/template.tmpl

# Destination
REMOTE_HOST=remotHostName     # Host already setup in ~/.ssh/config

WEB_DIR="path/to/html/content"
GOPHER_DIR="path/to/phlog/content"
GEMINI_DIR="path/to/gemini-capsule/content"

DIST_DIRS=("$WEB_DIR" "$GOPHER_DIR" "$GEMINI_DIR")


#============ Functions ===========#

# Building log.html:

build_page() {
	twtxt2html -T $TEMPLATE $TWTXT > $HTML
}

# Bulk Copy files to their destinations:

copy_files() {
	for DIR in "${DIST_DIRS[@]}"; do
    # Copy both `txt` and `html` files to the Web server and only `txt`
    # to gemini and gopher server content folders
		if [ "$DIR" == "$WEB_DIR" ]; then
			scp -C "$TWTXT" "$HTML" "$REMOTE_HOST:$DIR/"
		else
			scp -C "$TWTXT" "$REMOTE_HOST:$DIR/"
		fi
	done
}

#========== Call to functions ===========$

build_page && copy_files

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I’ve been using Codeium too the last week or so ! It’s pretty good and like @xuu@txt.sour.is said is a pretty desent Junior assistant, it helps me write good docs and the tab completion is amazing!

It of course completely sucks at doing anything “intelligent” or complex, but if you just use it as a fancier auto complete it’s actually half way decent 👌

@quark@ferengi.one I admit I find the general “click here to share blah” generally wasteful, useless and unengaging really. Not just Wordle.

I admittedly however, I’ve been guilty of doing this sometimes myself. 🤦‍♂️ sometimes though I think it’s OK to show your achievements. 👌

This might be quite unpopular, but I truly dislike Wordle. The reason isn’t rooted on any psychological issue, it is much, much more simple: people share their Wordle result(s)—I figure they feel good about themselves—and for me it is only uneven, unaligned, wasteful noise. I don’t even want to show you an example, but I am sure you know what I am talking about.

Thank gods those posting their hideous squares have finally quieted down. LOL.

Testing the new custom template option. Got to modify it more, but baby steps.

@prologic@twtxt.net woot! Fast! I think you need to change your nick to “fastlogic” instead. :-D

@quark@ferengi.one LOL 😂 No worries! 😉

@quark@ferengi.one All fixed! 🥳 pleasure doing business with y’all. 🤣

Thank you for adding the feature so fast, @prologic@twtxt.net! Look at how beautiful this one renders now. Oh my!

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Just as an aside, shouldn’t you assume utf-8 anyway these days if not specified? 🤔 I mean basically everything almost always uses utf-8 encoding right? 😅

@quark@ferengi.one Okay fair 👌

@movq@www.uninformativ.de So basically on-call, but you don’t get paid for it? 🤔

@prologic@twtxt.net sorry but nope. Neither jenny, nor yarnd supports it at all. This was treated as a thread because I picked one of @falsifian@www.falsifian.org’s twtxts (with the “old subject”), and replied to it (hence starting the thread).

@quark@ferengi.one aye aye captain 🤣

@quark@ferengi.one It’s a good thin yarnd makes this user configurable via a preference 🤣 And displays both 😅

@quark@ferengi.one LOL 😂 Thanks!

@quark@ferengi.one You are right, whilst it technically works, its not well supported. Too much of the code would have to change to support that, and it’s not worth the value.

Oh, and you can’t imagine the level of control I am commandeering by restraining me from editing that previous “missing-one-backtick” twtxt. LOL!

So yeah no, whilst it technically works, neither jenny nor yarnd support it very well. Only at a very basic level.

It actually has treated this as a thread, but it gets a bit weird, because we thread based on the content address of a root twt.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com this is the little script I am using on my publish_command:

#!/usr/bin/env bash

twtxt2html -t "Quark's twtxt feed" /var/www/sites/ferengi.one/twtxt.txt > /var/www/sites/ferengi.one/index.html

I named it twtxtit. :-)

@prologic@twtxt.net based on @falsifian@www.falsifian.org’s findings, I don’t believe this is quite accurate.

“yarnd(_at least_) doesn't support creating such a custom TwtSubject, but it will reply and respect and thread one if one was constructed."

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org yes, that happened around 2 years ago, on commit 5923078ea5.

Make that three issues. Mostly because the other two were feeling kind of lonely. So, yeah. Ha!

@quark@ferengi.one It looks like the part about traditional topics has been removed from that page. Here is an old version that mentions it: https://web.archive.org/web/20221211165458/https://dev.twtxt.net/doc/twtsubjectextension.html . Still, I don’t see any description of what is actually allowed between the parentheses. May be worth noting that twtxt.net is displaying the twts with the subject stripped, so some piece of code is recognizing it as a subject (or, at least, something to be removed).

Opened a couple of issues on twtxt2html. Maybe @prologic@twtxt.net will get to them after he has completed his luxurious recharging cycle. LOL.

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org fully agree. I have never been a fan of relative times to begin with, so that one will go away, foh sho! :-D