@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org And your query to construct a tree? Can you share the full query (screenshot looks scary 🤣) – On another note, SQL and relational databases aren’t really that conduces to tree-like structures are they? 🤣

In fact it depends on how many Twts there are that form part of a thread, if you take a much larger sample size of my own feed for example, it starts to approximate ~1.5x increase in size:

$ ./compare.sh https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt 500
Original file size: 126842 bytes
Modified file size: 317029 bytes
Percentage increase in file size: 149.94%
...

In fact @falsifian@www.falsifian.org you had quite a lot of good feedback, do you mind collecting them in a task list on the doc somewhere so I can get to em? 🤔

Can someone make the edit?

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Tbis was just a representative sample. The real concrete cost here is a ~5x increase in memory consumption for yarnd and/or ~5x increase in disk storage.

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Mind sharing your schema?

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Not sure I’ll check

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org My proposal is three steps:

• increase the hash length from 7 to 11
  

Then:

• Add support for changing your feed’s location without breaking g threads
  

Then much later:

• Add formal support for edits

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org No I don’t either just say’n 😅

@movq@www.uninformativ.de That’s what I want to know 🤣

What gossip, gopherspace?!

(Da ZERO)

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#mundoZERO #MobilidadeSustentável #Clima

So just to be clear, it’s not as bad as the OP in this thread, this is just a worst case scenario. With some additional analysis I did today, its closer to around ~5x the memory requirements of my pod, which would roughly go from ~22MB to ~120MB or so, probably a bit more in practise. But this is still a significant increase in memory. The on-disk requirements would also increase by around ~5x as well on average going from ~12GB to about ~60GB at current archive size.

Just out of curiosity, I inspected the yarns database (the search engine//cralwer) to find the average length of a Twtxt URI:

$ inspect-db yarns.db | jq -r '.Value.URL' | awk '{ total += length; count++ } END { if (count > 0) print total / count }'
40.3387

Given an RFC3339 UTC timestamp has a length of 20 characters with seconds precision. We’re talking about Twt Subject taking up ~63 characters/bytes on average.

Comparing a few feeds:

• @xuu@txt.sour.is would see an increase of ~20%
  
• @falsifian@www.falsifian.org would see an increase of ~8%
  
• @bender@twtxt.net would see an increase of ~20%
  
• @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org would see an increase of ~15%
  
• @aelaraji@aelaraji.com would see an increase of ~13%
  
• @sorenpeter@darch.dk would see an increase of ~8%
  
• @movq@www.uninformativ.de would see an increase of ~9%
  

Just from a scalability standpoint along I’m not seeing a switch to location-based Twt ids to support threading a good idea here. This is what I meant when I said to @david@collantes.us in a recent call that we open up a new can of worms (or new set of problems) by drastically changing the approach, rather than incrementally improving the existing approach we have today (_which has served us well for the past 4 years already_0.

Reminder to take the Twtxt (anonymous) Poll: http://polljunkie.com/poll/xdgjib/twtxt-v2

Apologies, I can’t edit the poll once it’s live, so the suggestion on feedback for supporting Markdown will have to be discussed at another time.

@xuu@txt.sour.is correct

@xuu@txt.sour.is 🤣🤣🤣

I demand full 9 digit nano second timestamps and the full TZ identifier as documented in the tz 2024b database! I need to know if there was a change in daylight savings as per the locality in question as of the provided date.

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org I believe the preserve means to include the original subject hash in the start of the twt such as (#somehash)

So I whipped up a quick shell script to demonstrate what I mean by the increase in feed size on average as well as the expected increase in storage and retrieval requirements.

$ ./compare.sh
Original file size: 28145 bytes
Modified file size: 70672 bytes
Percentage increase in file size: 151.10%
...

Thank goodness we relaxed that limit and I’ve stopped being so Puritan about it but my overall point is we would be significantly increasing the human size as well as the machine size of the identity of threads as well as twts

With the original specification of 140 character Twt length recommendation. There’s only leaves you with about 78 characters worth of anything remotely useful to say in response.

Let’s say the overhead is always three bytes two parentheses under space.

So for example, if we would use @movq@www.uninformativ.de ’s feed as an example thread ID here, his feed with a particular timestamp, were already looking at a subject length of 59 bytes +/- a couple of bytes to denote the subject in the Twt itself/

One of the reasons we wanted to originally use Contant based addressing and short hashes as our threading model was to keep individual Twts short so that they were still readable if you viewed the manually by hand.

With the proposal to switch to location based addressing using a pointer to a feed and a timestamp in that feed you’re looking at roughly 2025 characters long because both the HTTP and HTML and even URI specifications do not specify maximum length for URI(s) AFAIK only recommendations.

@bender@twtxt.net I can’t see myself personally, increasing the infrastructure and costs to run this pod to support this as we switch over potentially and as things continue to grow in scale. You would never get your infinite search and infinite timeline features that you’ve always wanted for example and I would have to drastically reduce what is visible or even searchable at any given point in time to much less than what it is today.

Another interesting side effect of changing from content-based addressing to location-based addressing is that switching from 7-byte keys to 2025-character keys for 3.5 million entries would expand the database size from 24.5 MB to about 7.09 GB—an increase of roughly 7.06 GB!

@bender@twtxt.net Ha! Maybe I should get on the Markdown train. You’re taking away my excuses.

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org No worries! Fell few to contribute to the doc directly I’d you wish 👌

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org Hmmm not sure sorry 🤔

@bender@twtxt.net

Sorry, you’re right, I should have used numbers!

I’m don’t understand what “preserve the original hash” could mean other than “make sure there’s still a twt in the feed with that hash”. Maybe the text could be clarified somehow.

I’m also not sure what you mean by markdown already being part of it. Of course people can already use Markdown, just like presumably nothing stopped people from using (twt subjects) before they were formally described. But it’s not universal; e.g. as a jenny user I just see the plain text.

@xuu@txt.sour.is Goos to know! 👌 So as long as we remain decentralized and non-commercial (I assume non/profit works too?) we’re good?

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@falsifian@www.falsifian.org The GDPR does not apply to the processing of data for a purely personal or household activity that is not connected to a professional or commercial activity.

@prologic@twtxt.net Do you feel the same about published vs. privately stored data?

For me there’s a distinction. I feel very strongly that I should be able to retain whatever private information I like. On the other hand, I do have some sympathy for requests not to publish or propagate (though I personally feel it’s still morally acceptable to ignore such requests).

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org I’d suggest making the whole content-type thing a SHOULD, to accommodate people just using some hosting service they don’t have much control over. (The same situation could make detecting followers hard, but IMO “please email me if you follow me” is still legit twtxt, even if inconvenient.)

@prologic@twtxt.net Thanks for writing that up!

I hope it can remain a living document (or sequence of draft revisions) for a good long time while we figure out how this stuff works in practice.

I am not sure how I feel about all this being done at once, vs. letting conventions arise.

For example, even today I could reply to twt abc1234 with “(#abc1234) Edit: …” and I think all you humans would understand it as an edit to (#abc1234). Maybe eventually it would become a common enough convention that clients would start to support it explicitly.

Similarly we could just start using 11-digit hashes. We should iron out whether it’s sha256 or whatever but there’s no need get all the other stuff right at the same time.

I have similar thoughts about how some users could try out location-based replies in a backward-compatible way (append the replyto: stuff after the legacy (#hash) style).

However I recognize that I’m not the one implementing this stuff, and it’s less work to just have everything determined up front.

Misc comments (I haven’t read the whole thing):

• Did you mean to make hashes hexadecimal? You lose 11 bits that way compared to base32. I’d suggest gaining 11 bits with base64 instead.

• “Clients MUST preserve the original hash” — do you mean they MUST preserve the original twt?

• Thanks for phrasing the bit about deletions so neutrally.

• I don’t like the MUST in “Clients MUST follow the chain of reply-to references…”. If someone writes a client as a 40-line shell script that requires the user to piece together the threading themselves, IMO we shouldn’t declare the client non-conforming just because they didn’t get to all the bells and whistles.

• Similarly I don’t like the MUST for user agents. For one thing, you might want to fetch a feed without revealing your identty. Also, it raises the bar for a minimal implementation (I’m again thinking again of the 40-line shell script).

• For “who follows” lists: why must the long, random tokens be only valid for a limited time? Do you have a scenario in mind where they could leak?

• Why can’t feeds be served over HTTP/1.0? Again, thinking about simple software. I recently tried implementing HTTP/1.1 and it wasn’t too bad, but 1.0 would have been slightly simpler.

• Why get into the nitty-gritty about caching headers? This seems like generic advice for HTTP servers and clients.

• I’m a little sad about other protocols being not recommended.

• I don’t know how I feel about including markdown. I don’t mind too much that yarn users emit twts full of markdown, but I’m more of a plain text kind of person. Also it adds to the length. I wonder if putting a separate document would make more sense; that would also help with the length.

Apparently, participation in this year’s @hacktoberfest@hacktoberfest won’t even grant you a “plant a tree” prize… how disappointing 😞

#MaradoWeekly #WeeklyRecord Week 38

Image

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Nice ! 🙏

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt Hello! 👋

Sassy pererê

Hello!

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Yes let’s make UTF-8 mandatory 👌

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Agreed

Let’s try this pill for Twtxt v2 (no account required)

http://polljunkie.com/poll/xdgjib/twtxt-v2

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org I’m a bit indifferent whether it’s at the beginning or end tbh.

This is still a draft! Feel free to edit it 👌

@movq@www.uninformativ.de That’s what I was afraid of 🤣

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Makes sense 👌 I think it’s fair to implement any spec changes incrementaly for sure 👌

And yea since yarnd has a store it’s a bit easier to support edit / delete actions 😅

So I’m a location based system, how exactly do I reply to one of these two Twts from @Yarns@search.twtxt.net ? 🤔

2024-09-07T12:55:56Z	🥳 NEW FEED: @<twtxt http://edsu.github.io/twtxt/twtxt.txt>
2024-09-07T12:55:56Z	🥳 NEW FEED: @<kdy https://twtxt.kdy.ch/twtxt.txt>

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Yup, this is why you started seeing if you could improve the “trust” of peers right? 😅

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Yeah I think what I’m proposing here is a more pragmatic approach to improvements that will last much longer than our first interaction (~4 years and going strong, but running into minor issues with edit/identify and some collssions_). This scope of changes is much easier to implement for yarnd and I suspect jenny too. and as indicated in here quite easy to have a reference implementation written in Bash with standard UNIX tools.

It’s even sorta/somewhat compatible with our existing feeds (kind of) 🤣 – Bit too stupid to figure out how to write enough correct Bash to make threads display inline nicely in an indented/tree-like fashion, but oh well 😅

Example:

$ ./twtxt-v2.sh reply 242561ce02d "Cool! 👌"
Posted twt with hash: b2c938f9838
...
$ ./twtxt-v2.sh timeline
...
prologic@twtxt.net [2024-09-22T07:26:37Z] <242561ce02d> Okay folks, I've spent all day on this today, and I _think_ its in "good enough"™ shape to share:

**Twtxt v2**:

- Specification: https://docs.mills.io/uJXuisaYTRWYDrl8A2jADg?both
- implementation: https://gist.mills.io/prologic/afdec15443da4d7aa898f383f171ec1b

 ![](https://twtxt.net/media/Wb9MtAiQyEkzNQB5dyVvUR.png)
prologic@localhost [2024-09-22T07:51:16Z] <b2c938f9838> Cool! 👌 (reply-to:242561ce02d)

Okay folks, I’ve spent all day on this today, and I think its in “good enough”™ shape to share:

Twtxt v2:

• Specification: https://docs.mills.io/uJXuisaYTRWYDrl8A2jADg?both
  
• implementation: https://gist.mills.io/prologic/afdec15443da4d7aa898f383f171ec1b
  

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com No that is absolutely correct. Without cryptographic identities and signatures there is no way to verify authenticity. That is correct. And I don’t think we need to necessarily. What I was just showing and proving was that I didn’t write that spoofed Twt in the first place, which was only provable at the time of @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org short-lived attack 🤣 He essentially forked yarnd, hosted it temporarily (I think locally) and used it to poison the caches of a few production pods.

Thankfully the gossip protocol used by yarnd as part of its “peering” between pods isn’t fully trusted, twts are not archived for example into permanent storage. So the moment my pod re-fetched my own feed, the spoofed Twt was obliterated 😅

Eventual consistency 🤣

LOl 😂 Not only have a tried to write up a full Twtxt v2 specification, I’ve also written a Bash shell script that implements the new spec 😅

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Haha 😝 Nice one! And yes I’m also aware of some collisions too!

@prologic@twtxt.net Care to explain how that proves anything when someone else already got the spoofed twt with no way to tell it was? can’t an old twt just be deleted and give a similar result when grep-ed for?

Le me is worried! 😅

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com I like Nttfy 👌 I’ve wanted to replace my use of the Pushover service with this for a while now 🤔

@bender@twtxt.net Just desktop notifications at the moment, but you could easily throw in a Ntfy server and get notified about anything you want, wherever you want. 🤣

@bender@twtxt.net 👌

👋 Reminder folks of the upcoming Yarn.social monthly online meetup:

I hope to see @david@collantes.us @movq@www.uninformativ.de @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org @xuu@txt.sour.is @sorenpeter@darch.dk and hopefully others too @aelaraji@aelaraji.com @falsifian@www.falsifian.org and anyone else that sees this! 🙏 We’re hopefully going to primarily discuss the future of Twtxt and the last few weeks of discussions 🤣

• Event: Yarn.social Online Meetup
  
• When: 28th September 2024 at 12:00pm UTC (midday)
  
• Where: Mills Meet : Yarn.social
  
• Cadence: 4th Saturday of every Month
  

Agenda:

• Let’s talk about the upcoming changes to the Twtxt spec(s)
  
  • See #xgghhnq
    

#Yarn.social #Meetup

My Position on the last few weeks of Twtxt spec discussions:

• We increase the Hash length from 7 to 11.
  
• We formalise the Update Commands extension.
  
• We amend the Twt Hash and Metadata extension to state:
  

Feed authors that wish to change the location of their feed (once Twts have been published) must append a new # url = comment to their feed to indicate the new location and thus change the “Hashing URI” used for Twts from that point onward.

This has implications of the “order” of a feed, and we should either do one of two things, either:

• Mandate that feeds are append-only.
  
• Or amend the Metadata spec with a new field that denotes the order of the feed so clients can make sense of “inline” comments in the feed. – This would also imply that the default order is (of course) append-only. Suggestion: # direction = [append|prepend]

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I finally decided to do a few experiments with yarnd to see how many things would break and how many assumptions there are around the idea of “Content Addressing”; here’s where I’m at so far:

• What breaks
  

Basically I’m at a point where spending time on this is going to provide very little value, there are assumptions made in the lextwt parser, assumptions made in yarnd, assumptions in the way storage is done and the way threading works and things are looked up. There are far reaching implications to changing the way Twts are identified here to be “location addressed” that I’m quite worried about the amount of effort would be required to change yarnd here.

So good we got fireworks. OK, maybe the fireworks were not exactly due to #SFD and instead was due to the local religious celebrations, but hey - our #SoftwareFreedomDay had fireworks!

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@mckinley@twtxt.net Yes I have, however I’m not counting that because even using “Cloud” is not labor free.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com We digits it out 🤣 @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org ’s little hack was good but only temporary 🤣

@sorenpeter@darch.dk Lins of agree with dealing with this kind of social nonsense which we’ve all done in the past 🤣

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I think your scenario doesn’t account for clients and their storage. The scenario described only really affects clients that come along later. Even then they would also be able to re-fetch mossing Twts from peers or even a search engine to fill in the gaps.

#SoftwareFreedomDay2024 is over in Portugal, but you are already thinking about 2025! Mark your calendars: third Saturday of September in Coimbra, Portugal.

In the meantime, here are a few pictures from today’s celebration in Lamego.

You can see more pictures of this year’s #SoftwareFreedomDay at https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_Freedom_Day_2024

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Image

Image

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@movq@www.uninformativ.de I cases of these kind of “abuse” of social trust. Then I think people should just delete their replies, unfollow the troll and leave them to shouting in the void. This is a inter-social issue, not a technical issue. Anything can be spoofed. We are not building a banking app, we are just having conversation and if trust are broken then communication breaks down. These edge-cases are all very hypothetical and not something I think we need to solve with technology.

Been thinking about it for the last couple of days and I would say we can make do with the shorter (#<DATETIME URL>)since it mirrors the twt-mention syntax and simply points to the OP as the topic identified by the time of posting it. Do we really need and (edit:...)and (delete:...) also?

@prologic@twtxt.net 🕵🏻 Hint: it was a twt about stolen property…

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…while chasing the clouds away.

I have just made yet another convoluted twtxt notifications script! Feeling like an old dog learning new tricks! 🤣

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@prologic@twtxt.net You’ve done extremely well for ~$125/month, but that’s not figuring in labor. I’m sure you’ve put a lot of hours into maintenance in the last 10 years.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de That’s kind a problem though right?

@david@collantes.us 🤣🤣🤣

I just realized the other big property you lose is:

What if someone completely changes the content of the root of the thread?

Does the Subject reference the feed and timestamp only or the intent too?

@prologic@twtxt.net “Even though there are some 😉 that have different views on this 🤣” — coyly raises the hand… LOL.

@bender@twtxt.net Yeah I’ll be honest here; I’m not going to be very happy if we go down this “location addressing” route;

• Twt Subjects lose their meaning.
  
• Twt Subjects cannot be verified without looking up the feed.
  
  • Which may or may not exist anymore or may change.
    
• Two persons cannot reply to a Twt independently of each other anymore.
  

and probably some other properties we’d stand to lose that I’m forgetting about…

@movq@www.uninformativ.de One of the biggest reasons I don’t like the (replyto:…) proposal (location addressing vs. content addressing) is that you just introduce a similar problem down the track, albeit rarer where if a feed changes its location, your thread’s “identifiers” are no longer valid, unless those feed authors maintain strict URL redirects, etc. This potentially has the long-term effect of being rather fragile, as opposed to what we have now where an Edit just really causes a natural fork in the thread, which is how “forking” works in the first place.

I realise this is a bit pret here, and it probably doesn’t matter a whole lot at our size. But I’m trying to think way ahead, to a point where Twtxt as a “thing” can continue to work and function decades from now, even with the extensions we’ve built. We’ve already proven for example that Twts and threads from ~4 years ago still work and are easily looked up haha 😝

Want to find something to do this #SoftwareFreedomDay without leaving home?

Check out this #CaptureTheFlag created to celebrate the day!

https://sfdctf24.ctfd.io/

I just read the primary spec I’m strongly in support of and it’s pretty rock solid for me 👌 💯